[AM] Article in Intelligent Enterprise magazine regarding Agile Methodologies

[p***@aol.com]

===========================================================
Menthol Smokers Only! Click on the link below and
register to receive up to $50 in savings from one of
America's leading menthol brands.
http://click.topica.com/caab4S3bUrKDAbWnbtka/ Lorillard
===========================================================

Hello, all.

I'd be interested in your responses to the article entitled "Popularity
Contest" in Intelligent Enterprise magazine. It provides a capsule sketch of the
comments I hear whenever the subject of agile methodologies comes up at many of
the software development-related events here in Silicon Valley.

I'm sure that this is something with which many of you have had to contend.
While I personally don't agree with many of his conclusions, I would appreciate
some feedback from the members of this forum.

The article may be accessed on-line at:

http://www.intelligententerprise.com/020628/511e_business1_2.jhtml

Thanks for your views.

Regards,

Pete

===========================================================
**** Bounces like rubber! Shatters like ceramic! ****
Discover Crazy Aaron's Thinking Putty in grown up
handfuls. It's the creativity unleashing, mood enhancing
desk toy!
http://click.topica.com/caab4CEbUrKDAbWnbtkf/ Crazy Aaron Enterprises
===========================================================

For more information about AM, visit the Agile Modeling Home Page at www.agilemodeling.com
--^----------------------------------------------------------------
This email was sent to: gcma-***@gmane.org

EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?bUrKDA.bWnbtk.Z2NtYS1h
Or send an email to: agilemodeling-***@topica.com

For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit:
http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER
--^----------------------------------------------------------------

[Norman Lorrain]

===========================================================
Are you looking for savings on products you use everyday?
Visit Quality Health today and see the coupons, free
samples and special offers our members enjoy each and
everyday.
http://click.topica.com/caab3ozbUrKDAbWnbtka/ Ivo Interactive
===========================================================

I would jump on the comment
"A software engineering project should resemble a good civil engineering
project"

No, no, no. Why should it? Why are some so insistent on shoehorning
software engineering into a civil engineering paradigm? Humanity has
been building bridges for millenia, but software for only decades. It's
a dumb analogy.

No one ever says that writing a novel, or that creating a recipe, or
writing a song, is like building a bridge.

Reminds me of an engineering prof. I once had. He said that the
engineering disciplines could be summarised by their equations:
civil: Sum(Forces) = 0
mechanical: Force = mass x acceleration
electrical: Schroedinger's equation:
http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/physics/SchroedingerEquation.html
The implication was that Electrical Engineering towered above all other
disciplines...

Of course, software development is even more involved, because we're not
constrained by the laws of physics. Way more degrees of freedom.



Another quote:
"The goal of software engineering in the future should be to be as
successful and as repeatable as any other engineering science"
I'm not so sure that repeatability is of any use. I know thats the holy
grail for many in QA and CMM advocates, but really, what does
repeatability buy us? If MS lost the source code to Word, would we
expect them to recreate it exactly? Bugs and all? Maybe I'm
misinterpreting the term.

If you're talking to someone who's looking for an analogy to
engineering, I woud point them to Poppendiecks book. I like how they
compare the software development process to control engineering - but
don't get confused, in this case the *process* is itself a control
system - it's all about feedback. In the traditional methologies, there
isn't nearly as much feedback, and perhaps thats why we've see so many
failures in the past decades.

In agile methods, if a practice isn't proving its worth in providing
feedback to the developers, its considered waste. The Poppendiecks
point out that elimination of waste is paramount in the Toyota
Production System, a modern and very successful engineering process.

Post by p***@aol.com
I'd be interested in your responses to the article entitled
"Popularity Contest" in Intelligent Enterprise magazine. It provides a
capsule sketch of the comments I hear whenever the subject of agile
methodologies comes up at many of the software development-related
events here in Silicon Valley.
http://www.intelligententerprise.com/020628/511e_business1_2.jhtml

===========================================================
Menthol Smokers Only! Click on the link below and
register to receive up to $50 in savings from one of
America's leading menthol brands.
http://click.topica.com/caab4S3bUrKDAbWnbtkf/ Lorillard
===========================================================

For more information about AM, visit the Agile Modeling Home Page at www.agilemodeling.com
--^----------------------------------------------------------------
This email was sent to: gcma-***@gmane.org

EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?bUrKDA.bWnbtk.Z2NtYS1h
Or send an email to: agilemodeling-***@topica.com

For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit:
http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER
--^----------------------------------------------------------------

[Harry]

===========================================================
Are you looking for savings on products you use everyday?
Visit Quality Health today and see the coupons, free
samples and special offers our members enjoy each and
everyday.
http://click.topica.com/caab3ozbUrKDAbWnbtka/ Ivo Interactive
===========================================================


----- Original Message -----
From: "Norman Lorrain" <***@lorrain.ca>
To: <***@topica.com>
Sent: Thursday, March 25, 2004 10:14 PM
Subject: Re: [AM] Article in Intelligent Enterprise magazine regarding Agile
Methodologi

<snip>

Post by Norman Lorrain
Reminds me of an engineering prof. I once had. He said that the
civil: Sum(Forces) = 0
mechanical: Force = mass x acceleration
http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/physics/SchroedingerEquation.html
The implication was that Electrical Engineering towered above all other
disciplines...
Of course, software development is even more involved, because we're not
constrained by the laws of physics. Way more degrees of freedom.

Actually, software development is governed by Heisenberg's Uncertainty
Principle: The more certain you are of your project's status, the less
certain you are of it's velocity ;-).

Harry

===========================================================
**** Bounces like rubber! Shatters like ceramic! ****
Discover Crazy Aaron's Thinking Putty in grown up
handfuls. It's the creativity unleashing, mood enhancing
desk toy!
http://click.topica.com/caab4CEbUrKDAbWnbtkf/ Crazy Aaron Enterprises
===========================================================

For more information about AM, visit the Agile Modeling Home Page at www.agilemodeling.com
--^----------------------------------------------------------------
This email was sent to: gcma-***@gmane.org

EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?bUrKDA.bWnbtk.Z2NtYS1h
Or send an email to: agilemodeling-***@topica.com

For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit:
http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER
--^----------------------------------------------------------------

[p***@aol.com]

===========================================================
**** Bounces like rubber! Shatters like ceramic! ****
Discover Crazy Aaron's Thinking Putty in grown up
handfuls. It's the creativity unleashing, mood enhancing
desk toy!
http://click.topica.com/caab4CEbUrKDAbWnbtka/ Crazy Aaron Enterprises
===========================================================

In a message dated 3/25/2004 9:15:13 PM Pacific Standard Time,
***@lorrain.ca writes:
I would jump on the comment
"A software engineering project should resemble a good civil engineering
project"
Hear, hear!

That's the issue I think most people who have seen or experienced an agile
project seize on almost universally: the bridge building analogy. Whenever I
hear it, I am reminded of the reason it took so long to remove he traffic
bottleneck at the point at which Alum Rock (I think...) crosses Highway 101 in San
Jose (The Capital of Silicon Valley): The overpass was constructd of about a
zillion tons of concrete all the way down to bedrock, so it was too difficult to
dismantle. Hmmm. that does sound like some of the application systems I've had
to go in and clean up!

Thanks for your comments.

Regards,

Pete

===========================================================
Are you looking for savings on products you use everyday?
Visit Quality Health today and see the coupons, free
samples and special offers our members enjoy each and
everyday.
http://click.topica.com/caab3ozbUrKDAbWnbtkf/ Ivo Interactive
===========================================================

For more information about AM, visit the Agile Modeling Home Page at www.agilemodeling.com
--^----------------------------------------------------------------
This email was sent to: gcma-***@gmane.org

EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?bUrKDA.bWnbtk.Z2NtYS1h
Or send an email to: agilemodeling-***@topica.com

For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit:
http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER
--^----------------------------------------------------------------

[David Robrecht]

===========================================================
Are you looking for savings on products you use everyday?
Visit Quality Health today and see the coupons, free
samples and special offers our members enjoy each and
everyday.
http://click.topica.com/caab3ozbUrKDAbWnbtka/ Ivo Interactive
===========================================================

I would loke to jump on the same comment comment
"A software engineering project should resemble a good civil engineering
project"

Creating software involves the same steps as other industries, the problem with the analogy is the mapping of the phases.
In Belgium all bridges and tunnels are considered works of art. Somebody has made a design and then is was build. (not straight away)
Cars are designed first and constructed later.
To me all software engineering activities before compiling are design activities.

I think software creation teams resemble advertising agencies, design departments of car manufacturers, animation movie makers.
Why not make the next analogy:
Developer = Animator
Functional analyst = Scenarist
Architect = Director
Project manager = Producer.

Note that I have not said or implied anything about maintenance or other very relevant and expensive activities. I only think designing software has nothing to to with the construction of bridges.

Robrect DAVID
***@advalvas.be

-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: Norman Lorrain [mailto:***@lorrain.ca]
Verzonden: vr 26/03/2004 6:14
Aan: ***@topica.com
CC:
Onderwerp: Re: [AM] Article in Intelligent Enterprise magazine regarding Agile Methodologi



===========================================================
Are you looking for savings on products you use everyday?
Visit Quality Health today and see the coupons, free
samples and special offers our members enjoy each and
everyday.
http://click.topica.com/caab3ozbUrKDAb7rRdIa/ Ivo Interactive
===========================================================

I would jump on the comment
"A software engineering project should resemble a good civil engineering
project"

No, no, no. Why should it? Why are some so insistent on shoehorning
software engineering into a civil engineering paradigm? Humanity has
been building bridges for millenia, but software for only decades. It's
a dumb analogy.

No one ever says that writing a novel, or that creating a recipe, or
writing a song, is like building a bridge.

Reminds me of an engineering prof. I once had. He said that the
engineering disciplines could be summarised by their equations:
civil: Sum(Forces) = 0
mechanical: Force = mass x acceleration
electrical: Schroedinger's equation:
http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/physics/SchroedingerEquation.html
The implication was that Electrical Engineering towered above all other
disciplines...

Of course, software development is even more involved, because we're not
constrained by the laws of physics. Way more degrees of freedom.



Another quote:
"The goal of software engineering in the future should be to be as
successful and as repeatable as any other engineering science"
I'm not so sure that repeatability is of any use. I know thats the holy
grail for many in QA and CMM advocates, but really, what does
repeatability buy us? If MS lost the source code to Word, would we
expect them to recreate it exactly? Bugs and all? Maybe I'm
misinterpreting the term.

If you're talking to someone who's looking for an analogy to
engineering, I woud point them to Poppendiecks book. I like how they
compare the software development process to control engineering - but
don't get confused, in this case the *process* is itself a control
system - it's all about feedback. In the traditional methologies, there
isn't nearly as much feedback, and perhaps thats why we've see so many
failures in the past decades.

In agile methods, if a practice isn't proving its worth in providing
feedback to the developers, its considered waste. The Poppendiecks
point out that elimination of waste is paramount in the Toyota
Production System, a modern and very successful engineering process.

Post by p***@aol.com
I'd be interested in your responses to the article entitled
"Popularity Contest" in Intelligent Enterprise magazine. It provides a
capsule sketch of the comments I hear whenever the subject of agile
methodologies comes up at many of the software development-related
events here in Silicon Valley.
http://www.intelligententerprise.com/020628/511e_business1_2.jhtml

===========================================================
Menthol Smokers Only! Click on the link below and
register to receive up to $50 in savings from one of
America's leading menthol brands.
http://click.topica.com/caab4S3bUrKDAb7rRdIf/ Lorillard
===========================================================

For more information about AM, visit the Agile Modeling Home Page at www.agilemodeling.com




===========================================================
**** Bounces like rubber! Shatters like ceramic! ****
Discover Crazy Aaron's Thinking Putty in grown up
handfuls. It's the creativity unleashing, mood enhancing
desk toy!
http://click.topica.com/caab4CEbUrKDAbWnbtkf/ Crazy Aaron Enterprises
===========================================================

For more information about AM, visit the Agile Modeling Home Page at www.agilemodeling.com
--^----------------------------------------------------------------
This email was sent to: gcma-***@gmane.org

EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?bUrKDA.bWnbtk.Z2NtYS1h
Or send an email to: agilemodeling-***@topica.com

For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit:
http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER
--^----------------------------------------------------------------

[Philippe Back (High Octane)]

===========================================================
**** Bounces like rubber! Shatters like ceramic! ****
Discover Crazy Aaron's Thinking Putty in grown up
handfuls. It's the creativity unleashing, mood enhancing
desk toy!
http://click.topica.com/caab4CEbUrKDAbWnbtka/ Crazy Aaron Enterprises
===========================================================

I would like to organize a meeting (with beer and all) for the readers of
this list who are down here in Belgium.
The goal of it would be discussing & sharing our experiences regarding agile
stuff with each other.

I am currently living in Waterloo but this can be done wherever around
Brussels.

I am waiting for your registrations !

Philippe Back
***@highoctane.be
www.highoctane.be

===========================================================
**** Bounces like rubber! Shatters like ceramic! ****
Discover Crazy Aaron's Thinking Putty in grown up
handfuls. It's the creativity unleashing, mood enhancing
desk toy!
http://click.topica.com/caab5n2bUrKDAbWnbtkf/ Crazy Aaron Enterprises
===========================================================

For more information about AM, visit the Agile Modeling Home Page at www.agilemodeling.com
--^----------------------------------------------------------------
This email was sent to: gcma-***@gmane.org

EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?bUrKDA.bWnbtk.Z2NtYS1h
Or send an email to: agilemodeling-***@topica.com

For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit:
http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER
--^----------------------------------------------------------------

[p***@aol.com]

===========================================================
Menthol Smokers Only! Click on the link below and
register to receive up to $50 in savings from one of
America's leading menthol brands.
http://click.topica.com/caab4S3bUrKDAbWnbtka/ Lorillard
===========================================================

In a message dated 3/26/2004 6:33:47 PM Pacific Standard Time,
***@telusplanet.net writes:
Actually, software development is governed by Heisenberg's Uncertainty
Principle: The more certain you are of your project's status, the less
certain you are of it's velocity ;-).
Was that Harry Heisenberg's Principle?

Good one, Harry! I'll use that in my next presentation (with appropriate
attribution, of course).

Regards,

Pete

===========================================================
Are you looking for savings on products you use everyday?
Visit Quality Health today and see the coupons, free
samples and special offers our members enjoy each and
everyday.
http://click.topica.com/caab3ozbUrKDAbWnbtkf/ Ivo Interactive
===========================================================

For more information about AM, visit the Agile Modeling Home Page at www.agilemodeling.com
--^----------------------------------------------------------------
This email was sent to: gcma-***@gmane.org

EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?bUrKDA.bWnbtk.Z2NtYS1h
Or send an email to: agilemodeling-***@topica.com

For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit:
http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER
--^----------------------------------------------------------------

[p***@aol.com]

===========================================================
Are you looking for savings on products you use everyday?
Visit Quality Health today and see the coupons, free
samples and special offers our members enjoy each and
everyday.
http://click.topica.com/caab3ozbUrKDAbWnbtka/ Ivo Interactive
===========================================================

In a message dated 3/27/2004 1:51:24 AM Pacific Standard Time,
***@highoctane.be writes:
would like to organize a meeting (with beer and all) for the readers of
this list who are down here in Belgium.
Your post reminded e of the three years I spent in the U>S> Air Force in
France in the mid-1960s, where I with a NATO communications/intelligence group. I
had to attend quite a few meetings at NATO HQ in Mons, Belgium. That
experience came in handy when I went to work at Memorex Corporation several years
later; they had a manufacturing plant at their European HQ in Herstal, near Liege,
which I visited on several occasions to set up their data proocessing and
equipment refurbishment facilities. These were really great experiences. I still
have a few good friends over there.

In my fantasy life, I'm getting on a plane to attend your meeting, and to
spend a few days afterward visiting my old haunts with my wife. Unfortunately
(and I really mean it!), my current real-life status precludes that trip: Maybe
next time. Unfortunately, I also missed the recent SD Expo in Santa Clara,
where I've lived and worked since 1970. That was a real downer, but prior
commitments prevented my attendance.

Thanks for the memories.

Regards,

Pete

===========================================================
**** Bounces like rubber! Shatters like ceramic! ****
Discover Crazy Aaron's Thinking Putty in grown up
handfuls. It's the creativity unleashing, mood enhancing
desk toy!
http://click.topica.com/caab4CEbUrKDAbWnbtkf/ Crazy Aaron Enterprises
===========================================================

For more information about AM, visit the Agile Modeling Home Page at www.agilemodeling.com
--^----------------------------------------------------------------
This email was sent to: gcma-***@gmane.org

EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?bUrKDA.bWnbtk.Z2NtYS1h
Or send an email to: agilemodeling-***@topica.com

For Topica's complete suite of email marketing solutions visit:
http://www.topica.com/?p=TEXFOOTER
--^----------------------------------------------------------------