Discussion:
Work to the risk was Re: Inspections Was: RE: [AM] ANN: Mashing Deadly My
p***@aol.com
2004-02-26 13:30:27 UTC
Permalink
In a message dated 2/26/2004 12:19:56 AM Pacific Standard Time,
***@compuserve.com writes:
Of course, my personal belief is that we should *always* use
appropriate methods.
Since my intoduction to this forum several months ago, one of the things that
struck me regarding the comments of new participants regarding "agility" in
general and agile modeling in particular was an expectation that there was a
well-defined step-by-step "formula" that, properly applied, would lead to
universal success in developing software. This expectation has been the cause of
much debate, and in several cases, somewhat heated exchanges, regarding just what
constitutes agilility. Your comment regarding "appropriate methods", above,
seems to strike at the heart of this issue. For some time now, I have suspected
that the form of agility implied in the principles of the Agile Manifesto,
and described and embraced by the contributors heer, requires either a fairly
extensive body of development experience or a substantial "leap of faith" in
order to understand that agility and appropriate methods are essentially two side
of the same coin. This is not necessarily intuitively obvious to the
uninitiated, particularly those earnestly searching for a better way to build
software, and it may account for many of the misunderstandings that have arisen on
this subject.

I may not be the brightest bulb in the box, so I could be way off base here,
but it seems to me that there seems to be some minimum level of knowledge or
experience required to understand and appreciate the general concept of
agility. I am sure that many of us have been called upon to describe agility, and it
sometimes feels to me like I'm trying to describe the Golden Rule to the
infidels; that is, I uually have to provide a brief summary of the history of
sofware development to put the concept of agility in an appropriate context before
the light bulb overhead gets turned on. Is my experience unique, or am I just
an inadequate spokeperson for agility? How do the rest of you hep others to
understand agility and its benefits?

Comments, please...

Regards,

Pete

For more information about AM, visit the Agile Modeling Home Page at www.agilemodeling.com
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Michael D Jackson
2004-02-26 14:22:32 UTC
Permalink
Spot on Pete..I probably in the same box with you, but I echo your
sentiments.



I've taken you're exact approach to explaining "agility" to some of my
less experienced and even long-time veteran counterparts. It's
definitely harder changing the thinking of some of the veterans.
Although at the end of my pontification they outwardly express
understanding, I think internally they still take a "leap of faith"
until we successfully deliver either because of the role I'm in and
associated authority or because they are desperate enough to try my
crazy ideas. :-)



Mike Jackson

Deloitte Consulting

Direct: 412 512 6321

Main: 412

Fax: 412 402 5964

Mobile: 412 512 6321

***@deloitte.com

www.deloitte.com



Deloitte

1000 One PPG Place

Pittsburgh, PA 15222

USA

-----Original Message-----
From: ***@aol.com [mailto:***@aol.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2004 8:30 AM
To: ***@topica.com
Subject: Re: Work to the risk was Re: Inspections Was: RE: [AM] ANN:
Mashing Deadly My



In a message dated 2/26/2004 12:19:56 AM Pacific Standard Time,
***@compuserve.com writes:

Of course, my personal belief is that we should *always* use
appropriate methods.

Since my intoduction to this forum several months ago, one of the things
that struck me regarding the comments of new participants regarding
"agility" in general and agile modeling in particular was an expectation
that there was a well-defined step-by-step "formula" that, properly
applied, would lead to universal success in developing software. This
expectation has been the cause of much debate, and in several cases,
somewhat heated exchanges, regarding just what constitutes agilility.
Your comment regarding "appropriate methods", above, seems to strike at
the heart of this issue. For some time now, I have suspected that the
form of agility implied in the principles of the Agile Manifesto, and
described and embraced by the contributors heer, requires either a
fairly extensive body of development experience or a substantial "leap
of faith" in order to understand that agility and appropriate methods
are essentially two side of the same coin. This is not necessarily
intuitively obvious to the uninitiated, particularly those earnestly
searching for a better way to build software, and it may account for
many of the misunderstandings that have arisen on this subject.



I may not be the brightest bulb in the box, so I could be way off base
here, but it seems to me that there seems to be some minimum level of
knowledge or experience required to understand and appreciate the
general concept of agility. I am sure that many of us have been called
upon to describe agility, and it sometimes feels to me like I'm trying
to describe the Golden Rule to the infidels; that is, I uually have to
provide a brief summary of the history of sofware development to put the
concept of agility in an appropriate context before the light bulb
overhead gets turned on. Is my experience unique, or am I just an
inadequate spokeperson for agility? How do the rest of you hep others to
understand agility and its benefits?



Comments, please...



Regards,



Pete





For more information about AM, visit the Agile Modeling Home Page at
www.agilemodeling.com

For more information about AM, visit the Agile Modeling Home Page at www.agilemodeling.com
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p***@aol.com
2004-02-26 14:35:25 UTC
Permalink
In a message dated 2/26/2004 6:23:57 AM Pacific Standard Time,
***@jacksonfam.com writes:
...or because they are desperate enough to try my crazy ideas. J
Mike:

I have often described my clients to this forum as either "desperate" or
"daring"...

Thanks...

Regards,

Pete

For more information about AM, visit the Agile Modeling Home Page at www.agilemodeling.com
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Scott E. Preece
2004-02-26 14:50:38 UTC
Permalink
It's worth pointing out that there are quite a few organizations that
have traditional software processes that are effective and efficient.
It's interesting to wonder whether some of the perceived success of the
agile methods is due to their replacing chaos with an approach that
they can pick up faster than traditional methods.

That is, I wonder if an organization with a mature software process
would gain as much from agile methods, or whether some significant part
of the gain is from process maturity.

Put another way, what part of agile methods' benefits come from the
methods themselves and what part from the fact that they are easy to
learn (compared to traditional methods that have an extended
institutionalization period).

scott
--
scott preece
motorola urbana design center (il67), 1800 s. oak st., champaign, il 61820
e-mail: ***@urbana.css.mot.com fax: 217-384-8550
phone: 217-384-8589 cell: 217-433-6114 pager: ***@msg.myvzw.com

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i***@prnewswire.co.uk
2004-02-26 14:50:51 UTC
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a***@ig.com.br
2004-02-27 19:54:21 UTC
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Alan W Brown
2004-02-28 19:30:40 UTC
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