Discussion:
Not connected to reality; was Relational Model was RE: [AM]
Paul Oldfield
2003-09-23 10:00:05 UTC
Permalink
(responding to all)
But it wouldn't be germane to your question of models
not connected to reality.
It wasn't my original question. At any rate, I would still like to
hear an answer to Chris' question. Where is there a model
not connected to reality? How can you even have one at
all? If it's not connected to reality, what are you modeling?
Those models I can call to mind that are least connected to
reality are stand-alone design patterns. Until they get used
in a design model, I see little connection to reality. Yet they
are useful (for selling books, if nothing else ;-) ).


Paul Oldfield

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any opinions expressed herein are not necessarily those of
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l***@ureach.com
2003-09-25 00:10:44 UTC
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Post by Paul Oldfield
(responding to all)
But it wouldn't be germane to your question of models
not connected to reality.
It wasn't my original question. At any rate, I would still like to
hear an answer to Chris' question. Where is there a model
not connected to reality? How can you even have one at
all? If it's not connected to reality, what are you modeling?
Those models I can call to mind that are least connected to
reality are stand-alone design patterns. Until they get used
in a design model, I see little connection to reality. Yet they
are useful (for selling books, if nothing else ;-) ).
And my argument would be that it's not a model .. it's a pattern.

In fact I might propose a definition, 'that in order for a thing to be a model,
it has to be a representation of something in realty'.

Les.

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Scott Ambler
2003-09-25 23:54:54 UTC
Permalink
But it wouldn't be germane to your question of models
not connected to reality.
It wasn't my original question. At any rate, I would still like to
hear an answer to Chris' question. Where is there a model
not connected to reality? How can you even have one at
all? If it's not connected to reality, what are you modeling?
How about when you're modeling something that has no basis in reality? For
example, I often use a "Dragon inherits from Bird and Lizard" example to
explain multiple inheritance. Dragons aren't real, yet I can still put
together a model describing them.

<snip>

- Scott

====================================================
Scott W. Ambler
Senior Consultant, Ronin International, Inc.
www.ronin-intl.com/company/scottAmbler.html

www.agiledata.org
www.agilemodeling.com
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Chris Britton
2003-09-26 07:07:25 UTC
Permalink
Scott,

Your assertion that "dragons inherit form birds and lizards" implies that
all dragons are birds and all dragons are lizards because subclasses are
subtypes as well as an inheritance mechanism. Hmm, you obviously have been
reading different dragon books to me.

Best regards,
Chris
-----Original Message-----
Sent: 26 September 2003 00:55
Subject: Re: Not connected to reality; was Relational Model was RE: [AM]
But it wouldn't be germane to your question of models
not connected to reality.
It wasn't my original question. At any rate, I would still like to
hear an answer to Chris' question. Where is there a model
not connected to reality? How can you even have one at
all? If it's not connected to reality, what are you modeling?
How about when you're modeling something that has no basis in reality?
For
example, I often use a "Dragon inherits from Bird and Lizard" example to
explain multiple inheritance. Dragons aren't real, yet I can still put
together a model describing them.
<snip>
- Scott
====================================================
Scott W. Ambler
Senior Consultant, Ronin International, Inc.
www.ronin-intl.com/company/scottAmbler.html
www.agiledata.org
www.agilemodeling.com
www.ambysoft.com
www.enterpriseunifiedprocess.info
www.modelingstyle.info
www.ronin-intl.com
For more information about AM, visit the Agile Modeling Home Page at www.agilemodeling.com
For more information about AM, visit the Agile Modeling Home Page at www.agilemodeling.com
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t***@bdk.rug.nl
2003-09-26 08:30:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scott Ambler
How about when you're modeling something that has no basis in reality?
For example, I often use a "Dragon inherits from Bird and Lizard"
example to explain multiple inheritance. Dragons aren't real, yet I
can still put together a model describing them.
To me this is a matter of definition. If you define a model as a
description of (a part of) reality, then your description of a dragon is
only a description (or a fairy tale or whatever) but not a model

Thomas de Boer

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Ronald Jeffries
2003-09-26 11:09:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by t***@bdk.rug.nl
Post by Scott Ambler
How about when you're modeling something that has no basis in reality?
For example, I often use a "Dragon inherits from Bird and Lizard"
example to explain multiple inheritance. Dragons aren't real, yet I
can still put together a model describing them.
To me this is a matter of definition. If you define a model as a
description of (a part of) reality, then your description of a dragon is
only a description (or a fairy tale or whatever) but not a model
Unless you think that fairy tales exist, and are therefore part of reality
...

Ron Jeffries
www.XProgramming.com
The practices are not XP. They are a path to XP.

For more information about AM, visit the Agile Modeling Home Page at www.agilemodeling.com
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Jason Gorman
2003-09-26 11:19:24 UTC
Permalink
...or you're trying to show why something CAN'T exist. A model is
essentially a theory - a generalization of a set of data points (snapshots,
if you like) that describes the rules and relationships that govern them. I
often use object diagrams, for example, to explain why a class diagram (type
model) is not correct. (Eg, a Person object who is own father...) Sadly,
people tend not to test their type models in this way. Ho hum!

Jason Gorman
http://www.objectmonkey.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Ronald Jeffries [mailto:***@acm.org]
Sent: 26 September 2003 12:09
To: ***@topica.com
Subject: Re: Not connected to reality; was Relational Model was RE: [AM]
Post by t***@bdk.rug.nl
Post by Scott Ambler
How about when you're modeling something that has no basis in reality?
For example, I often use a "Dragon inherits from Bird and Lizard"
example to explain multiple inheritance. Dragons aren't real, yet I
can still put together a model describing them.
To me this is a matter of definition. If you define a model as a
description of (a part of) reality, then your description of a dragon is
only a description (or a fairy tale or whatever) but not a model
Unless you think that fairy tales exist, and are therefore part of reality
...

Ron Jeffries
www.XProgramming.com
The practices are not XP. They are a path to XP.

For more information about AM, visit the Agile Modeling Home Page at
www.agilemodeling.com

For more information about AM, visit the Agile Modeling Home Page at www.agilemodeling.com
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Paul Oldfield
2003-09-26 08:52:36 UTC
Permalink
(responding to Les)
Post by l***@ureach.com
Post by Paul Oldfield
Those models I can call to mind that are least connected to
reality are stand-alone design patterns. Until they get used
in a design model, I see little connection to reality. Yet they
are useful (for selling books, if nothing else ;-) ).
And my argument would be that it's not a model .. it's a pattern.
In fact I might propose a definition, 'that in order for a thing to
be a model, it has to be a representation of something in realty'.
Hmm, so you don't permit the modelling of abstract concepts
such as patterns? Or would you permit it but just disallow
calling the result a 'model'? Can I call it a UML diagram?
I'd be happy enough to do that, and you can rap my knuckles
if on occasion I slip into my bad old habits ;-)

Paul Oldfield

For more information about AM, visit the Agile Modeling Home Page at www.agilemodeling.com
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Paul Oldfield
2003-09-26 11:35:27 UTC
Permalink
(responding to Les)
Post by l***@ureach.com
Post by Paul Oldfield
Those models I can call to mind that are least connected to
reality are stand-alone design patterns. Until they get used
in a design model, I see little connection to reality. Yet they
are useful (for selling books, if nothing else ;-) ).
And my argument would be that it's not a model .. it's a pattern.
In fact I might propose a definition, 'that in order for a thing to
be a model, it has to be a representation of something in realty'.
Hmm, so you don't permit the modelling of abstract concepts
such as patterns? Or would you permit it but just disallow
calling the result a 'model'? Can I call it a UML diagram?
I'd be happy enough to do that, and you can rap my knuckles
if on occasion I slip into my bad old habits ;-)

Paul Oldfield

For more information about AM, visit the Agile Modeling Home Page at www.agilemodeling.com
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l***@ureach.com
2003-09-27 00:49:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by l***@ureach.com
In fact I might propose a definition, 'that in order for a thing to
be a model, it has to be a representation of something in realty'.
Hmm, so you don't permit the modelling of abstract concepts
such as patterns? Or would you permit it but just disallow
calling the result a 'model'? Can I call it a UML diagram?
I'd be happy enough to do that, and you can rap my knuckles
if on occasion I slip into my bad old habits ;-)

<Les>
Paul,

I help maintain a glossary of terms at work. One of the attributes we've had to
add is 'Business Discipline' [Marketing|IT|..etc] (yes, as any good Rational
customer does, we use ReqPro for our glossary) because different work areas have
different definitions for the same term.

Would I rap someone's knuckles for not using the existing term definition - no,
we let each discipline define their own term.

I'm just trying to help those people that may not have a firm definition for the
term 'Model'.

On the subject of 'UML diagrams', when I first joined my present company, I
found that people were using the term 'model' inconsistently. This was
particularly bad, because I work for the process group. After investigation I
found the most common use of the word was to describe a UML diagram. I.e. a Use
Case diagram or Class diagram. Whereas a diagram is not IMO a model, but simply
a view into a model.

The concept I introduced is that the Model is the thing that Rational Rose
produces (yes there's that Rational word again). The diagrams are part of this
model, as is a class or a use case.

It appears that everyone has now got the same understanding, and conversations
on the subject of Rose models cause significantly less discussion than before I
joined.

Just an example of how a glossary can benefit a company.

Les.

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Scott Ambler
2003-09-27 00:55:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scott Ambler
<snip>
On the subject of 'UML diagrams', when I first joined my present company, I
found that people were using the term 'model' inconsistently. This was
particularly bad, because I work for the process group. After investigation I
found the most common use of the word was to describe a UML diagram. I.e. a Use
Case diagram or Class diagram. Whereas a diagram is not IMO a model, but simply
a view into a model.
The concept I introduced is that the Model is the thing that Rational Rose
produces (yes there's that Rational word again). The diagrams are part of this
model, as is a class or a use case.
It appears that everyone has now got the same understanding, and conversations
on the subject of Rose models cause significantly less discussion than before I
joined.
Just an example of how a glossary can benefit a company.
<snip>
Also seems to be an example of how a glossary can harm a company too. Does
a sketch on a whiteboard fall under your definition? How about some index
cards? Or some flip chart paper with post-it notes stuck to it?

- Scott


====================================================
Scott W. Ambler
Senior Consultant, Ronin International, Inc.
www.ronin-intl.com/company/scottAmbler.html

www.agiledata.org
www.agilemodeling.com
www.ambysoft.com
www.enterpriseunifiedprocess.info
www.modelingstyle.info
www.ronin-intl.com

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l***@ureach.com
2003-09-27 01:05:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scott Ambler
Also seems to be an example of how a glossary can harm a company too.
How so? I don't see everyone in the process group using a word with the same
understanding being harmful. Afterall it's just a word. Other groups are
entitled to come up with their own definition if they wish, just so long as they
anounce it in the glosaary so we know what they mean when they use it.
Post by Scott Ambler
Does
a sketch on a whiteboard fall under your definition? How about some index
cards? Or some flip chart paper with post-it notes stuck to it?
No. One word one definition. A sketch on a whiteboard is a 'Sketch'. A flip
chart with post-it notes is a 'Flipchart with post-it notes'. If we find that we
need another definition for these items because tey are being used
inconsistently they we'll put one in the glossary, but for now these terms
suffice.

Les.

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David Putman
2004-03-03 09:42:27 UTC
Permalink
Hi Scott,

Would you mind if I posted the following to the Agile Modelling mailing
list.
I know it's advertising but it is a free magazine for developers.

Regards

Dave Putman

PS: Are you coming to Europe this year?

<advert>
Just a blatant plug to let you know that Application Development Advisor
magazine (I don't own it, I just write for it) is now available on-line and
downloadable from
http://www.appdevadvisor.co.uk
The magazine always carries plenty of general software development articles
and very often (if I can help it) articles relating to agility and extreme
programming. Free hardcopy subscriptions are available to all UK-based
software developers (I kid you not)
</advert>

For more information about AM, visit the Agile Modeling Home Page at www.agilemodeling.com
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Scott Ambler
2004-03-03 12:35:48 UTC
Permalink
I'm always happy to see blatant plugs for relevant and free sources of
info. ADA is a good magazine, BTW.

I'll be in Europe in a few weeks to speak at a conference in
Amsterdam. We'll likely send out a message about this on the list in the
next day or so seeing as I'm giving a one-day AMDD tutorial. Should be fun.

- Scott
Post by David Putman
Hi Scott,
Would you mind if I posted the following to the Agile Modelling mailing
list.
I know it's advertising but it is a free magazine for developers.
Regards
Dave Putman
PS: Are you coming to Europe this year?
<advert>
Just a blatant plug to let you know that Application Development Advisor
magazine (I don't own it, I just write for it) is now available on-line and
downloadable from
http://www.appdevadvisor.co.uk
The magazine always carries plenty of general software development articles
and very often (if I can help it) articles relating to agility and extreme
programming. Free hardcopy subscriptions are available to all UK-based
software developers (I kid you not)
</advert>
For more information about AM, visit the Agile Modeling Home Page at www.agilemodeling.com
====================================================
Scott W. Ambler
Senior Consultant, Ronin International, Inc.
www.ronin-intl.com/company/scottAmbler.html

www.agiledata.org
www.agilemodeling.com
www.ambysoft.com
www.enterpriseunifiedprocess.info
www.modelingstyle.info
www.ronin-intl.com

For more information about AM, visit the Agile Modeling Home Page at www.agilemodeling.com
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Steven Gordon
2003-09-27 03:34:44 UTC
Permalink
Les,

I could accept this as the definition for Rose Model, but not for Model. I could even accept a definition of the form "A Rose Model is ...; The term Model will be taken to mean a Rose Model except when the context clearly indicates a more general meaning".

It does your company a disservice to saddle it with an unqualified tool-specific definition for Model. This short-sighted tactic will not only limit your company's current agility, but may also inhibit its future ability to adapt and compete.
Post by Scott Ambler
<snip>
On the subject of 'UML diagrams', when I first joined my present company, I
found that people were using the term 'model' inconsistently. This was
particularly bad, because I work for the process group. After investigation I
found the most common use of the word was to describe a UML diagram. I.e.
a Use
Case diagram or Class diagram. Whereas a diagram is not IMO a model, but
simply
a view into a model.
The concept I introduced is that the Model is the thing that Rational Rose
produces (yes there's that Rational word again). The diagrams are part of this
model, as is a class or a use case.
It appears that everyone has now got the same understanding, and conversations
on the subject of Rose models cause significantly less discussion than
before I
joined.
Just an example of how a glossary can benefit a company.
<snip>
For more information about AM, visit the Agile Modeling Home Page at www.agilemodeling.com
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l***@ureach.com
2003-09-27 19:17:35 UTC
Permalink
I did not make myself clear.

The definition of model is not a Rose model. I use Rose model as an example,
because it is something that everyone in the group is familiar with abd
therefore easy to grasp the same concept. It does not matter what modeling tool
is used, the model definition is th same.

The point I'm trying to get across is that a model is more than simply a
diagram. It is the contents of ALL diagrams plus their semantic meanings and
underlying information that may not be explicitely stated in the diagrams.

Here's an attempt at an example of what I mean. I draw two classes and connect
them with an association. This could be a model in Rose, but not on a
whiteboard. The difference - in Rose there is an implied cardinality at each end
of the association, but I chose not to show it on the class diagram, but it is
there. On the whiteboard diagram there is not. (I'll be happy to respond to
arguments that say that it is there in the whiteboard picture too.)

Similarly, if I print the Rose diagram onto paper, what is on the paper is a
diagram, even though it captures all classes and associations in my model, it is
not THE model.

These arguments work well for the process group that I am a member of, and these
are not inexperienced or stupid people that I work with. Does not imply that
these definitions will work for eeryone, but it saves much confusion in my
workplace.

Hope this clarifies a little,

Les.
Post by Steven Gordon
I could accept this as the definition for Rose Model, but not for Model. I
could even accept a
Post by Steven Gordon
definition of the form "A Rose Model is ...; The term Model will be taken to
mean a Rose Model except
Post by Steven Gordon
when the context clearly indicates a more general meaning".
It does your company a disservice to saddle it with an unqualified
tool-specific definition for
Post by Steven Gordon
Model. This short-sighted tactic will not only limit your company's current
agility, but may also
Post by Steven Gordon
inhibit its future ability to adapt and compete.
Post by Scott Ambler
<snip>
On the subject of 'UML diagrams', when I first joined my present company, I
found that people were using the term 'model' inconsistently. This was
particularly bad, because I work for the process group. After investigation
I
Post by Steven Gordon
Post by Scott Ambler
found the most common use of the word was to describe a UML diagram. I.e.
a Use
Case diagram or Class diagram. Whereas a diagram is not IMO a model, but
simply
a view into a model.
The concept I introduced is that the Model is the thing that Rational Rose
produces (yes there's that Rational word again). The diagrams are part of
this
Post by Steven Gordon
Post by Scott Ambler
model, as is a class or a use case.
It appears that everyone has now got the same understanding, and
conversations
Post by Steven Gordon
Post by Scott Ambler
on the subject of Rose models cause significantly less discussion than
before I
joined.
Just an example of how a glossary can benefit a company.
<snip>
For more information about AM, visit the Agile Modeling Home Page at
www.agilemodeling.com
Post by Steven Gordon
ATTACHMENT 1: application/ms-tnef; name=winmail.dat
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Jason Gorman
2003-09-27 20:00:56 UTC
Permalink
And of course, let's not forget that programs written in Java, C#, or any
programming language, are also models. Mathematical equations are models.
When I give someone directions I am using verbal models, and the picture on
your TV is just a model... In fact, the distinction between a thing and
information about a thing is pretty blurred. Everyone we perceive is just a
model of whatever's out there, built by our minds. In that sense, nothing we
model is necessarily real :)

Jason Gorman
http://www.objectmonkey.com

-----Original Message-----
From: ***@ureach.com [mailto:***@ureach.com]
Sent: 27 September 2003 20:18
To: Steven Gordon
Subject: RE: Not connected to reality; was Relational Model was RE: [AM]


I did not make myself clear.

The definition of model is not a Rose model. I use Rose model as an example,
because it is something that everyone in the group is familiar with abd
therefore easy to grasp the same concept. It does not matter what modeling
tool
is used, the model definition is th same.

The point I'm trying to get across is that a model is more than simply a
diagram. It is the contents of ALL diagrams plus their semantic meanings and
underlying information that may not be explicitely stated in the diagrams.

Here's an attempt at an example of what I mean. I draw two classes and
connect
them with an association. This could be a model in Rose, but not on a
whiteboard. The difference - in Rose there is an implied cardinality at each
end
of the association, but I chose not to show it on the class diagram, but it
is
there. On the whiteboard diagram there is not. (I'll be happy to respond to
arguments that say that it is there in the whiteboard picture too.)

Similarly, if I print the Rose diagram onto paper, what is on the paper is a
diagram, even though it captures all classes and associations in my model,
it is
not THE model.

These arguments work well for the process group that I am a member of, and
these
are not inexperienced or stupid people that I work with. Does not imply that
these definitions will work for eeryone, but it saves much confusion in my
workplace.

Hope this clarifies a little,

Les.
Post by Steven Gordon
I could accept this as the definition for Rose Model, but not for Model.
I
could even accept a
Post by Steven Gordon
definition of the form "A Rose Model is ...; The term Model will be taken to
mean a Rose Model except
Post by Steven Gordon
when the context clearly indicates a more general meaning".
It does your company a disservice to saddle it with an unqualified
tool-specific definition for
Post by Steven Gordon
Model. This short-sighted tactic will not only limit your company's current
agility, but may also
Post by Steven Gordon
inhibit its future ability to adapt and compete.
Post by Scott Ambler
<snip>
On the subject of 'UML diagrams', when I first joined my present company, I
found that people were using the term 'model' inconsistently. This was
particularly bad, because I work for the process group. After
investigation
I
Post by Steven Gordon
Post by Scott Ambler
found the most common use of the word was to describe a UML diagram. I.e.
a Use
Case diagram or Class diagram. Whereas a diagram is not IMO a model, but
simply
a view into a model.
The concept I introduced is that the Model is the thing that Rational Rose
produces (yes there's that Rational word again). The diagrams are part of
this
Post by Steven Gordon
Post by Scott Ambler
model, as is a class or a use case.
It appears that everyone has now got the same understanding, and
conversations
Post by Steven Gordon
Post by Scott Ambler
on the subject of Rose models cause significantly less discussion than
before I
joined.
Just an example of how a glossary can benefit a company.
<snip>
For more information about AM, visit the Agile Modeling Home Page at www.agilemodeling.com
ATTACHMENT 1: application/ms-tnef; name=winmail.dat
________________________________________________
Get your own "800" number
Voicemail, fax, email, and a lot more
http://www.ureach.com/reg/tag

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www.agilemodeling.com

For more information about AM, visit the Agile Modeling Home Page at www.agilemodeling.com
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Philippe Back (High Octane)
2003-09-28 07:14:04 UTC
Permalink
As they put it in NLP:

"The map is not the territory, what I think being the world is my own
perception of it"

--> as many realities as there are people

while I am at it:

"Language is a secondary representation of experience"

--> information given does not reflect "subjective reality"

As there are as many perceptions as there are people, and as experience
(usually) accumulate, we are bound to live in :

- evolving and inherently subjective realities

Add the emotional component to the mix and a tendency to try to get it
"right" (which is impossible).

The question is then : "how can we build a system that satisfies the
stakeholders and users given that state of affairs ?"

Right now, a way to build such a system is in following a process that
creates "incremental buy in" by the target organization.

By that I mean that we try to lower the rejection threshold for the system.

If user representatives get invited to workshops and see their input valued,
if stakeholders are given a chance to experience what they asked in a
tangible way,
if developers see that they work for real people with understandable
concerns,
if "models" (UML or (active) sketches or data samples) are used to clear the
fog in everyone's head to a reasonable level

then

there is a chance to get the system done in my view.

Philippe Back
www.highoctane.be


----- Original Message -----
From: "Jason Gorman" <***@objectmonkey.com>
To: <***@topica.com>
Sent: Saturday, 27 September, 2003 22:00
Subject: RE: Not connected to reality; was Relational Model was RE: [AM]
Post by Jason Gorman
And of course, let's not forget that programs written in Java, C#, or any
programming language, are also models. Mathematical equations are models.
When I give someone directions I am using verbal models, and the picture on
your TV is just a model... In fact, the distinction between a thing and
information about a thing is pretty blurred. Everyone we perceive is just a
model of whatever's out there, built by our minds. In that sense, nothing we
model is necessarily real :)
Jason Gorman
http://www.objectmonkey.com
-----Original Message-----
Sent: 27 September 2003 20:18
To: Steven Gordon
Subject: RE: Not connected to reality; was Relational Model was RE: [AM]
I did not make myself clear.
The definition of model is not a Rose model. I use Rose model as an example,
because it is something that everyone in the group is familiar with abd
therefore easy to grasp the same concept. It does not matter what modeling
tool
is used, the model definition is th same.
The point I'm trying to get across is that a model is more than simply a
diagram. It is the contents of ALL diagrams plus their semantic meanings and
underlying information that may not be explicitely stated in the diagrams.
Here's an attempt at an example of what I mean. I draw two classes and
connect
them with an association. This could be a model in Rose, but not on a
whiteboard. The difference - in Rose there is an implied cardinality at each
end
of the association, but I chose not to show it on the class diagram, but it
is
there. On the whiteboard diagram there is not. (I'll be happy to respond to
arguments that say that it is there in the whiteboard picture too.)
Similarly, if I print the Rose diagram onto paper, what is on the paper is a
diagram, even though it captures all classes and associations in my model,
it is
not THE model.
These arguments work well for the process group that I am a member of, and
these
are not inexperienced or stupid people that I work with. Does not imply that
these definitions will work for eeryone, but it saves much confusion in my
workplace.
Hope this clarifies a little,
Les.
Post by Steven Gordon
I could accept this as the definition for Rose Model, but not for Model.
I
could even accept a
Post by Steven Gordon
definition of the form "A Rose Model is ...; The term Model will be
taken
Post by Jason Gorman
to
mean a Rose Model except
Post by Steven Gordon
when the context clearly indicates a more general meaning".
It does your company a disservice to saddle it with an unqualified
tool-specific definition for
Post by Steven Gordon
Model. This short-sighted tactic will not only limit your company's
current
agility, but may also
Post by Steven Gordon
inhibit its future ability to adapt and compete.
Post by Scott Ambler
<snip>
On the subject of 'UML diagrams', when I first joined my present
company,
Post by Jason Gorman
I
Post by Steven Gordon
Post by Scott Ambler
found that people were using the term 'model' inconsistently. This was
particularly bad, because I work for the process group. After
investigation
I
Post by Steven Gordon
Post by Scott Ambler
found the most common use of the word was to describe a UML diagram. I.e.
a Use
Case diagram or Class diagram. Whereas a diagram is not IMO a model, but
simply
a view into a model.
The concept I introduced is that the Model is the thing that Rational
Rose
Post by Steven Gordon
Post by Scott Ambler
produces (yes there's that Rational word again). The diagrams are part of
this
Post by Steven Gordon
Post by Scott Ambler
model, as is a class or a use case.
It appears that everyone has now got the same understanding, and
conversations
Post by Steven Gordon
Post by Scott Ambler
on the subject of Rose models cause significantly less discussion than
before I
joined.
Just an example of how a glossary can benefit a company.
<snip>
For more information about AM, visit the Agile Modeling Home Page at
www.agilemodeling.com
Post by Steven Gordon
ATTACHMENT 1: application/ms-tnef; name=winmail.dat
________________________________________________
Get your own "800" number
Voicemail, fax, email, and a lot more
http://www.ureach.com/reg/tag
For more information about AM, visit the Agile Modeling Home Page at www.agilemodeling.com
For more information about AM, visit the Agile Modeling Home Page at www.agilemodeling.com
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Jason Gorman
2003-09-28 07:37:54 UTC
Permalink
There might also be a need to apply the (genuine) scientific method here.
One of the problem with up-front specifications is that they are usually
ambiguous, and therefore untestable. It's almost impossible to tell from a
set of use cases or an analysis model if they actually got it "right". You
mend up having to deliver working code - and when you do waterfall
development that means going to enormous expense just to check some
assumptions...

I see iterative development as a series of "theories" put forward which are
then tested against "reality" (such that it is) to see if they fit the
facts. One of the problems we face is that reality is a moving target. The
inherent complexity of business (or any endevour involving so many complex
components like people, organisations, markets, economies, weather systems,
etc) makes it very difficult to pin down. So, not only are we looking for
the "right" answer through a series of best-guess solutions, we must deal
with the fact that even the most accurate models only stay accurate for a
limited amount of time.

I'm reminded of a Dr Who episode where a fantastically intelligent machine
was sent to Earth millions of years ago to classify and catalogue all forms
of life on the planet, only to discover that life kept evolving and making
his catalogue irrelevant. In the end the machine decides the only practical
solution is to destroy all life on earth, guaranteeing that his catalogue
will remain forever up-to-date and allowing him to complete his task.

Waterfall development often leads to similar kinds of insanity, where
project teams try to froce the customer to "freeze the problem" so they can
make it fit the solution they've come up with.

Jason Gorman
http://www.objectmonkey.com


-----Original Message-----
From: Philippe Back (High Octane) [mailto:***@highoctane.be]
Sent: 28 September 2003 08:14
To: ***@topica.com
Subject: Re: Not connected to reality; was Relational Model was RE: [AM]


As they put it in NLP:

"The map is not the territory, what I think being the world is my own
perception of it"

--> as many realities as there are people

while I am at it:

"Language is a secondary representation of experience"

--> information given does not reflect "subjective reality"

As there are as many perceptions as there are people, and as experience
(usually) accumulate, we are bound to live in :

- evolving and inherently subjective realities

Add the emotional component to the mix and a tendency to try to get it
"right" (which is impossible).

The question is then : "how can we build a system that satisfies the
stakeholders and users given that state of affairs ?"

Right now, a way to build such a system is in following a process that
creates "incremental buy in" by the target organization.

By that I mean that we try to lower the rejection threshold for the system.

If user representatives get invited to workshops and see their input valued,
if stakeholders are given a chance to experience what they asked in a
tangible way,
if developers see that they work for real people with understandable
concerns,
if "models" (UML or (active) sketches or data samples) are used to clear the
fog in everyone's head to a reasonable level

then

there is a chance to get the system done in my view.

Philippe Back
www.highoctane.be


----- Original Message -----
From: "Jason Gorman" <***@objectmonkey.com>
To: <***@topica.com>
Sent: Saturday, 27 September, 2003 22:00
Subject: RE: Not connected to reality; was Relational Model was RE: [AM]
Post by Jason Gorman
And of course, let's not forget that programs written in Java, C#, or any
programming language, are also models. Mathematical equations are models.
When I give someone directions I am using verbal models, and the picture on
your TV is just a model... In fact, the distinction between a thing and
information about a thing is pretty blurred. Everyone we perceive is just a
model of whatever's out there, built by our minds. In that sense, nothing we
model is necessarily real :)
Jason Gorman
http://www.objectmonkey.com
-----Original Message-----
Sent: 27 September 2003 20:18
To: Steven Gordon
Subject: RE: Not connected to reality; was Relational Model was RE: [AM]
I did not make myself clear.
The definition of model is not a Rose model. I use Rose model as an example,
because it is something that everyone in the group is familiar with abd
therefore easy to grasp the same concept. It does not matter what modeling
tool
is used, the model definition is th same.
The point I'm trying to get across is that a model is more than simply a
diagram. It is the contents of ALL diagrams plus their semantic meanings and
underlying information that may not be explicitely stated in the diagrams.
Here's an attempt at an example of what I mean. I draw two classes and
connect
them with an association. This could be a model in Rose, but not on a
whiteboard. The difference - in Rose there is an implied cardinality at each
end
of the association, but I chose not to show it on the class diagram, but it
is
there. On the whiteboard diagram there is not. (I'll be happy to respond to
arguments that say that it is there in the whiteboard picture too.)
Similarly, if I print the Rose diagram onto paper, what is on the paper is a
diagram, even though it captures all classes and associations in my model,
it is
not THE model.
These arguments work well for the process group that I am a member of, and
these
are not inexperienced or stupid people that I work with. Does not imply that
these definitions will work for eeryone, but it saves much confusion in my
workplace.
Hope this clarifies a little,
Les.
Post by Steven Gordon
I could accept this as the definition for Rose Model, but not for Model.
I
could even accept a
Post by Steven Gordon
definition of the form "A Rose Model is ...; The term Model will be
taken
Post by Jason Gorman
to
mean a Rose Model except
Post by Steven Gordon
when the context clearly indicates a more general meaning".
It does your company a disservice to saddle it with an unqualified
tool-specific definition for
Post by Steven Gordon
Model. This short-sighted tactic will not only limit your company's
current
agility, but may also
Post by Steven Gordon
inhibit its future ability to adapt and compete.
Post by Scott Ambler
<snip>
On the subject of 'UML diagrams', when I first joined my present
company,
Post by Jason Gorman
I
Post by Steven Gordon
Post by Scott Ambler
found that people were using the term 'model' inconsistently. This was
particularly bad, because I work for the process group. After
investigation
I
Post by Steven Gordon
Post by Scott Ambler
found the most common use of the word was to describe a UML diagram. I.e.
a Use
Case diagram or Class diagram. Whereas a diagram is not IMO a model, but
simply
a view into a model.
The concept I introduced is that the Model is the thing that Rational
Rose
Post by Steven Gordon
Post by Scott Ambler
produces (yes there's that Rational word again). The diagrams are part of
this
Post by Steven Gordon
Post by Scott Ambler
model, as is a class or a use case.
It appears that everyone has now got the same understanding, and
conversations
Post by Steven Gordon
Post by Scott Ambler
on the subject of Rose models cause significantly less discussion than
before I
joined.
Just an example of how a glossary can benefit a company.
<snip>
For more information about AM, visit the Agile Modeling Home Page at
www.agilemodeling.com
Post by Steven Gordon
ATTACHMENT 1: application/ms-tnef; name=winmail.dat
________________________________________________
Get your own "800" number
Voicemail, fax, email, and a lot more
http://www.ureach.com/reg/tag
For more information about AM, visit the Agile Modeling Home Page at www.agilemodeling.com
For more information about AM, visit the Agile Modeling Home Page at www.agilemodeling.com
For more information about AM, visit the Agile Modeling Home Page at
www.agilemodeling.com

For more information about AM, visit the Agile Modeling Home Page at www.agilemodeling.com
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Scott Ambler
2003-09-28 13:52:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by l***@ureach.com
I did not make myself clear.
The definition of model is not a Rose model. I use Rose model as an example,
because it is something that everyone in the group is familiar with abd
therefore easy to grasp the same concept. It does not matter what modeling tool
is used, the model definition is th same.
The point I'm trying to get across is that a model is more than simply a
diagram. It is the contents of ALL diagrams plus their semantic meanings and
underlying information that may not be explicitely stated in the diagrams.
One definition of a model that I like is that it is "zero or more diagrams
which may be described by supporting documentation". A single diagram
could be considered a model in that definition. A collection of use cases,
without a diagram, could also be considered a model. A class diagram with
supporting class descriptions is also a model. Several class diagrams is a
model, and so on.
Post by l***@ureach.com
Here's an attempt at an example of what I mean. I draw two classes and connect
them with an association. This could be a model in Rose, but not on a
whiteboard. The difference - in Rose there is an implied cardinality at each end
of the association, but I chose not to show it on the class diagram, but it is
there. On the whiteboard diagram there is not. (I'll be happy to respond to
arguments that say that it is there in the whiteboard picture too.)
At www.modelingstyle.info/classDiagram.html I discuss the concept of
implied multiplicity when it comes to aggregation/composition. I wasn't
using Rose and I could easily have drawn those diagrams on a
whiteboard. It's not a tool issue per se, it's a cultural issue on your
team. If someone draws two classes connected by an association but doesn't
indicate multiplicity if it's the common practice of the team to assume a
multiplicity of 1 then that's fine. Whether or not the tool works that
way, or if you've captured this as a guideline, is an orthogonal issue.
Post by l***@ureach.com
Similarly, if I print the Rose diagram onto paper, what is on the paper is a
diagram, even though it captures all classes and associations in my model, it is
not THE model.
These arguments work well for the process group that I am a member of, and these
are not inexperienced or stupid people that I work with. Does not imply that
these definitions will work for eeryone, but it saves much confusion in my
workplace.
Then that's what's important. Your group needs to define the
language/culture that it works with.
Post by l***@ureach.com
<snip>
- Scott


====================================================
Scott W. Ambler
Senior Consultant, Ronin International, Inc.
www.ronin-intl.com/company/scottAmbler.html

www.agiledata.org
www.agilemodeling.com
www.ambysoft.com
www.enterpriseunifiedprocess.info
www.modelingstyle.info
www.ronin-intl.com

For more information about AM, visit the Agile Modeling Home Page at www.agilemodeling.com
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r***@eiscon.com
2003-09-29 16:11:06 UTC
Permalink
I use the following definition for "Model":
A selectively incomplete representation of something important in the real
world that provides the ability to study a certain aspect of the real world
object.

There are many ways to "model" the real world. The important thing is to
understand what aspect you are trying to study and use the best technique to
gain that understanding.

Ronald E. Thompson III
Director of Product Delivery
govONE Solutions
(303) 470-6922
(720) 332-3654
***@eiscon.com
***@govONEsolutions.com

A genuine leader is not a searcher for consensus but a molder of consensus.
--Martin Luther King, Jr.


-----Original Message-----
From: Scott Ambler [mailto:***@ronin-intl.com]
Sent: Sunday, September 28, 2003 7:53 AM
To: ***@topica.com
Subject: RE: Not connected to reality; was Relational Model was RE: [AM]
Post by l***@ureach.com
I did not make myself clear.
The definition of model is not a Rose model. I use Rose model as an
example, because it is something that everyone in the group is familiar
with abd therefore easy to grasp the same concept. It does not matter
what modeling tool is used, the model definition is th same.
The point I'm trying to get across is that a model is more than simply
a diagram. It is the contents of ALL diagrams plus their semantic
meanings and underlying information that may not be explicitely stated
in the diagrams.
One definition of a model that I like is that it is "zero or more diagrams
which may be described by supporting documentation". A single diagram
could be considered a model in that definition. A collection of use cases,
without a diagram, could also be considered a model. A class diagram with
supporting class descriptions is also a model. Several class diagrams is a
model, and so on.
Post by l***@ureach.com
Here's an attempt at an example of what I mean. I draw two classes and
connect them with an association. This could be a model in Rose, but
not on a whiteboard. The difference - in Rose there is an implied
cardinality at each end of the association, but I chose not to show it
on the class diagram, but it is there. On the whiteboard diagram there
is not. (I'll be happy to respond to arguments that say that it is
there in the whiteboard picture too.)
At www.modelingstyle.info/classDiagram.html I discuss the concept of
implied multiplicity when it comes to aggregation/composition. I wasn't
using Rose and I could easily have drawn those diagrams on a
whiteboard. It's not a tool issue per se, it's a cultural issue on your
team. If someone draws two classes connected by an association but doesn't
indicate multiplicity if it's the common practice of the team to assume a
multiplicity of 1 then that's fine. Whether or not the tool works that
way, or if you've captured this as a guideline, is an orthogonal issue.
Post by l***@ureach.com
Similarly, if I print the Rose diagram onto paper, what is on the paper
is a diagram, even though it captures all classes and associations in
my model, it is not THE model.
These arguments work well for the process group that I am a member of,
and
these
are not inexperienced or stupid people that I work with. Does not imply that
these definitions will work for eeryone, but it saves much confusion in my
workplace.
Then that's what's important. Your group needs to define the
language/culture that it works with.
Post by l***@ureach.com
<snip>
- Scott


====================================================
Scott W. Ambler
Senior Consultant, Ronin International, Inc.
www.ronin-intl.com/company/scottAmbler.html

www.agiledata.org
www.agilemodeling.com
www.ambysoft.com
www.enterpriseunifiedprocess.info
www.modelingstyle.info
www.ronin-intl.com

For more information about AM, visit the Agile Modeling Home Page at
www.agilemodeling.com
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Jason Gorman
2003-09-29 16:16:45 UTC
Permalink
did we have a discussion about whether you could model things not found in
the real world?

Jason Gorman
http://www.objectmonkey.com

-----Original Message-----
From: ***@eiscon.com [mailto:***@eiscon.com]
Sent: 29 September 2003 17:11
To: ***@topica.com
Subject: RE: Definition of Model : [AM]


I use the following definition for "Model":
A selectively incomplete representation of something important in the real
world that provides the ability to study a certain aspect of the real world
object.

There are many ways to "model" the real world. The important thing is to
understand what aspect you are trying to study and use the best technique to
gain that understanding.

Ronald E. Thompson III
Director of Product Delivery
govONE Solutions
(303) 470-6922
(720) 332-3654
***@eiscon.com
***@govONEsolutions.com

A genuine leader is not a searcher for consensus but a molder of consensus.
--Martin Luther King, Jr.


-----Original Message-----
From: Scott Ambler [mailto:***@ronin-intl.com]
Sent: Sunday, September 28, 2003 7:53 AM
To: ***@topica.com
Subject: RE: Not connected to reality; was Relational Model was RE: [AM]
Post by l***@ureach.com
I did not make myself clear.
The definition of model is not a Rose model. I use Rose model as an
example, because it is something that everyone in the group is familiar
with abd therefore easy to grasp the same concept. It does not matter
what modeling tool is used, the model definition is th same.
The point I'm trying to get across is that a model is more than simply
a diagram. It is the contents of ALL diagrams plus their semantic
meanings and underlying information that may not be explicitely stated
in the diagrams.
One definition of a model that I like is that it is "zero or more diagrams
which may be described by supporting documentation". A single diagram
could be considered a model in that definition. A collection of use cases,
without a diagram, could also be considered a model. A class diagram with
supporting class descriptions is also a model. Several class diagrams is a
model, and so on.
Post by l***@ureach.com
Here's an attempt at an example of what I mean. I draw two classes and
connect them with an association. This could be a model in Rose, but
not on a whiteboard. The difference - in Rose there is an implied
cardinality at each end of the association, but I chose not to show it
on the class diagram, but it is there. On the whiteboard diagram there
is not. (I'll be happy to respond to arguments that say that it is
there in the whiteboard picture too.)
At www.modelingstyle.info/classDiagram.html I discuss the concept of
implied multiplicity when it comes to aggregation/composition. I wasn't
using Rose and I could easily have drawn those diagrams on a
whiteboard. It's not a tool issue per se, it's a cultural issue on your
team. If someone draws two classes connected by an association but doesn't
indicate multiplicity if it's the common practice of the team to assume a
multiplicity of 1 then that's fine. Whether or not the tool works that
way, or if you've captured this as a guideline, is an orthogonal issue.
Post by l***@ureach.com
Similarly, if I print the Rose diagram onto paper, what is on the paper
is a diagram, even though it captures all classes and associations in
my model, it is not THE model.
These arguments work well for the process group that I am a member of,
and
these
are not inexperienced or stupid people that I work with. Does not imply that
these definitions will work for eeryone, but it saves much confusion in my
workplace.
Then that's what's important. Your group needs to define the
language/culture that it works with.
Post by l***@ureach.com
<snip>
- Scott


====================================================
Scott W. Ambler
Senior Consultant, Ronin International, Inc.
www.ronin-intl.com/company/scottAmbler.html

www.agiledata.org
www.agilemodeling.com
www.ambysoft.com
www.enterpriseunifiedprocess.info
www.modelingstyle.info
www.ronin-intl.com

For more information about AM, visit the Agile Modeling Home Page at
www.agilemodeling.com

For more information about AM, visit the Agile Modeling Home Page at
www.agilemodeling.com

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r***@eiscon.com
2003-09-29 17:48:26 UTC
Permalink
I believe we did have a discussion about whether a model had to have a
connection to reality. I think you can model concepts that don't have a
direct connection, but they would still need a connection to the object that
you are modeling. On the other hand, the definition meets my same intent if
you take out the two references to "real world".

Ronald E. Thompson III
Director of Product Delivery
govONE Solutions
(303) 470-6922
(720) 332-3654
***@eiscon.com
***@govONEsolutions.com

A genuine leader is not a searcher for consensus but a molder of consensus.
--Martin Luther King, Jr.


-----Original Message-----
From: Jason Gorman [mailto:***@objectmonkey.com]
Sent: Monday, September 29, 2003 10:17 AM
To: ***@topica.com
Subject: RE: Definition of Model : [AM]


did we have a discussion about whether you could model things not found in
the real world?

Jason Gorman
http://www.objectmonkey.com

-----Original Message-----
From: ***@eiscon.com [mailto:***@eiscon.com]
Sent: 29 September 2003 17:11
To: ***@topica.com
Subject: RE: Definition of Model : [AM]


I use the following definition for "Model":
A selectively incomplete representation of something important in the real
world that provides the ability to study a certain aspect of the real world
object.

There are many ways to "model" the real world. The important thing is to
understand what aspect you are trying to study and use the best technique to
gain that understanding.

Ronald E. Thompson III
Director of Product Delivery
govONE Solutions
(303) 470-6922
(720) 332-3654
***@eiscon.com
***@govONEsolutions.com

A genuine leader is not a searcher for consensus but a molder of consensus.
--Martin Luther King, Jr.


-----Original Message-----
From: Scott Ambler [mailto:***@ronin-intl.com]
Sent: Sunday, September 28, 2003 7:53 AM
To: ***@topica.com
Subject: RE: Not connected to reality; was Relational Model was RE: [AM]
Post by l***@ureach.com
I did not make myself clear.
The definition of model is not a Rose model. I use Rose model as an
example, because it is something that everyone in the group is familiar
with abd therefore easy to grasp the same concept. It does not matter
what modeling tool is used, the model definition is th same.
The point I'm trying to get across is that a model is more than simply
a diagram. It is the contents of ALL diagrams plus their semantic
meanings and underlying information that may not be explicitely stated
in the diagrams.
One definition of a model that I like is that it is "zero or more diagrams
which may be described by supporting documentation". A single diagram could
be considered a model in that definition. A collection of use cases,
without a diagram, could also be considered a model. A class diagram with
supporting class descriptions is also a model. Several class diagrams is a
model, and so on.
Post by l***@ureach.com
Here's an attempt at an example of what I mean. I draw two classes and
connect them with an association. This could be a model in Rose, but
not on a whiteboard. The difference - in Rose there is an implied
cardinality at each end of the association, but I chose not to show it
on the class diagram, but it is there. On the whiteboard diagram there
is not. (I'll be happy to respond to arguments that say that it is
there in the whiteboard picture too.)
At www.modelingstyle.info/classDiagram.html I discuss the concept of implied
multiplicity when it comes to aggregation/composition. I wasn't using Rose
and I could easily have drawn those diagrams on a whiteboard. It's not a
tool issue per se, it's a cultural issue on your team. If someone draws two
classes connected by an association but doesn't indicate multiplicity if
it's the common practice of the team to assume a multiplicity of 1 then
that's fine. Whether or not the tool works that way, or if you've captured
this as a guideline, is an orthogonal issue.
Post by l***@ureach.com
Similarly, if I print the Rose diagram onto paper, what is on the paper
is a diagram, even though it captures all classes and associations in
my model, it is not THE model.
These arguments work well for the process group that I am a member of,
and these
are not inexperienced or stupid people that I work with. Does not imply that
these definitions will work for eeryone, but it saves much confusion in
my workplace.
Then that's what's important. Your group needs to define the
language/culture that it works with.
Post by l***@ureach.com
<snip>
- Scott


====================================================
Scott W. Ambler
Senior Consultant, Ronin International, Inc.
www.ronin-intl.com/company/scottAmbler.html

www.agiledata.org
www.agilemodeling.com
www.ambysoft.com
www.enterpriseunifiedprocess.info
www.modelingstyle.info
www.ronin-intl.com

For more information about AM, visit the Agile Modeling Home Page at
www.agilemodeling.com

For more information about AM, visit the Agile Modeling Home Page at
www.agilemodeling.com

For more information about AM, visit the Agile Modeling Home Page at
www.agilemodeling.com
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Jim Standley
2003-09-30 03:10:29 UTC
Permalink
Yup. There are some maps in LOTR books. Models of something not real. Ok,
it's real to some of you. Flame me in Elvish.
Post by r***@eiscon.com
I believe we did have a discussion about whether a model had to have a
connection to reality. I think you can model concepts that don't have a
direct connection, but they would still need a connection to the object that
you are modeling. On the other hand, the definition meets my same intent if
you take out the two references to "real world".
Ronald E. Thompson III
Director of Product Delivery
govONE Solutions
(303) 470-6922
(720) 332-3654
A genuine leader is not a searcher for consensus but a molder of consensus.
--Martin Luther King, Jr.
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Monday, September 29, 2003 10:17 AM
Subject: RE: Definition of Model : [AM]
did we have a discussion about whether you could model things not found in
the real world?
Jason Gorman
http://www.objectmonkey.com
-----Original Message-----
Sent: 29 September 2003 17:11
Subject: RE: Definition of Model : [AM]
A selectively incomplete representation of something important in the real
world that provides the ability to study a certain aspect of the real world
object.
There are many ways to "model" the real world. The important thing is to
understand what aspect you are trying to study and use the best technique to
gain that understanding.
Ronald E. Thompson III
Director of Product Delivery
govONE Solutions
(303) 470-6922
(720) 332-3654
A genuine leader is not a searcher for consensus but a molder of consensus.
--Martin Luther King, Jr.
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Sunday, September 28, 2003 7:53 AM
Subject: RE: Not connected to reality; was Relational Model was RE: [AM]
Post by l***@ureach.com
I did not make myself clear.
The definition of model is not a Rose model. I use Rose model as an
example, because it is something that everyone in the group is familiar
with abd therefore easy to grasp the same concept. It does not matter
what modeling tool is used, the model definition is th same.
The point I'm trying to get across is that a model is more than simply
a diagram. It is the contents of ALL diagrams plus their semantic
meanings and underlying information that may not be explicitely stated
in the diagrams.
One definition of a model that I like is that it is "zero or more diagrams
which may be described by supporting documentation". A single diagram could
be considered a model in that definition. A collection of use cases,
without a diagram, could also be considered a model. A class diagram with
supporting class descriptions is also a model. Several class diagrams is a
model, and so on.
Post by l***@ureach.com
Here's an attempt at an example of what I mean. I draw two classes and
connect them with an association. This could be a model in Rose, but
not on a whiteboard. The difference - in Rose there is an implied
cardinality at each end of the association, but I chose not to show it
on the class diagram, but it is there. On the whiteboard diagram there
is not. (I'll be happy to respond to arguments that say that it is
there in the whiteboard picture too.)
At www.modelingstyle.info/classDiagram.html I discuss the concept of implied
multiplicity when it comes to aggregation/composition. I wasn't using Rose
and I could easily have drawn those diagrams on a whiteboard. It's not a
tool issue per se, it's a cultural issue on your team. If someone draws two
classes connected by an association but doesn't indicate multiplicity if
it's the common practice of the team to assume a multiplicity of 1 then
that's fine. Whether or not the tool works that way, or if you've captured
this as a guideline, is an orthogonal issue.
Post by l***@ureach.com
Similarly, if I print the Rose diagram onto paper, what is on the paper
is a diagram, even though it captures all classes and associations in
my model, it is not THE model.
These arguments work well for the process group that I am a member of,
and these
are not inexperienced or stupid people that I work with. Does not imply
that
Post by l***@ureach.com
these definitions will work for eeryone, but it saves much confusion in
my workplace.
Then that's what's important. Your group needs to define the
language/culture that it works with.
Post by l***@ureach.com
<snip>
- Scott
====================================================
Scott W. Ambler
Senior Consultant, Ronin International, Inc.
www.ronin-intl.com/company/scottAmbler.html
www.agiledata.org
www.agilemodeling.com
www.ambysoft.com
www.enterpriseunifiedprocess.info
www.modelingstyle.info
www.ronin-intl.com
For more information about AM, visit the Agile Modeling Home Page at www.agilemodeling.com
For more information about AM, visit the Agile Modeling Home Page at www.agilemodeling.com
For more information about AM, visit the Agile Modeling Home Page at www.agilemodeling.com
For more information about AM, visit the Agile Modeling Home Page at www.agilemodeling.com
For more information about AM, visit the Agile Modeling Home Page at www.agilemodeling.com
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Steven Gordon
2003-09-27 23:17:34 UTC
Permalink
Les,

I would have no trouble accepting the definition that a model is a concept which is represented by the sum of the various modeling artifacts defined for it. But, your definition goes much further than that. It makes a distinction between a concept whose modeling artifacts are built via a tool like Rose and ones built via tools like pen & paper, whiteboard & marker, or Powerpoint.

How can the tool matter? A chair is a chair no matter what tools were used to build it. A C++ program is not necessarily one that was built with an IDE.

Is it not possible to build an inconsistent set of modeling artifacts with Rose? Is it not possible to build a totally consistent set of modeling artifacts using pencils and napkins?
Furthermore, why should the concept underlying an incomplete set of modeling artifacts that is sufficient for the current need not be considered a model?


-----Original Message-----
From: ***@ureach.com [mailto:***@ureach.com]
Sent: Sat 9/27/2003 12:17 PM
To: Steven Gordon
Cc:
Subject: RE: Not connected to reality; was Relational Model was RE: [AM]

I did not make myself clear.

The definition of model is not a Rose model. I use Rose model as an example,
because it is something that everyone in the group is familiar with abd
therefore easy to grasp the same concept. It does not matter what modeling tool
is used, the model definition is th same.

The point I'm trying to get across is that a model is more than simply a
diagram. It is the contents of ALL diagrams plus their semantic meanings and
underlying information that may not be explicitely stated in the diagrams.

Here's an attempt at an example of what I mean. I draw two classes and connect
them with an association. This could be a model in Rose, but not on a
whiteboard. The difference - in Rose there is an implied cardinality at each end
of the association, but I chose not to show it on the class diagram, but it is
there. On the whiteboard diagram there is not. (I'll be happy to respond to
arguments that say that it is there in the whiteboard picture too.)

Similarly, if I print the Rose diagram onto paper, what is on the paper is a
diagram, even though it captures all classes and associations in my model, it is
not THE model.

These arguments work well for the process group that I am a member of, and these
are not inexperienced or stupid people that I work with. Does not imply that
these definitions will work for eeryone, but it saves much confusion in my
workplace.

Hope this clarifies a little,

Les.
Post by Steven Gordon
I could accept this as the definition for Rose Model, but not for Model. I
could even accept a
Post by Steven Gordon
definition of the form "A Rose Model is ...; The term Model will be taken to
mean a Rose Model except
Post by Steven Gordon
when the context clearly indicates a more general meaning".
It does your company a disservice to saddle it with an unqualified
tool-specific definition for
Post by Steven Gordon
Model. This short-sighted tactic will not only limit your company's current
agility, but may also
Post by Steven Gordon
inhibit its future ability to adapt and compete.
Post by Scott Ambler
<snip>
On the subject of 'UML diagrams', when I first joined my present company, I
found that people were using the term 'model' inconsistently. This was
particularly bad, because I work for the process group. After investigation
I
Post by Steven Gordon
Post by Scott Ambler
found the most common use of the word was to describe a UML diagram. I.e.
a Use
Case diagram or Class diagram. Whereas a diagram is not IMO a model, but
simply
a view into a model.
The concept I introduced is that the Model is the thing that Rational Rose
produces (yes there's that Rational word again). The diagrams are part of
this
Post by Steven Gordon
Post by Scott Ambler
model, as is a class or a use case.
It appears that everyone has now got the same understanding, and
conversations
Post by Steven Gordon
Post by Scott Ambler
on the subject of Rose models cause significantly less discussion than
before I
joined.
Just an example of how a glossary can benefit a company.
<snip>
For more information about AM, visit the Agile Modeling Home Page at
www.agilemodeling.com
Post by Steven Gordon
ATTACHMENT 1: application/ms-tnef; name=winmail.dat
________________________________________________
Get your own "800" number
Voicemail, fax, email, and a lot more
http://www.ureach.com/reg/tag

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Paul Oldfield
2003-09-28 09:25:34 UTC
Permalink
(responding to Les)
Post by l***@ureach.com
Post by Paul Oldfield
Hmm, so you don't permit the modelling of abstract concepts
such as patterns? Or would you permit it but just disallow
calling the result a 'model'? Can I call it a UML diagram?
I'd be happy enough to do that, and you can rap my knuckles
if on occasion I slip into my bad old habits ;-)
On the subject of 'UML diagrams', when I first joined my present
company, I found that people were using the term 'model' inconsistently.
This was particularly bad, because I work for the process group.
After investigation I found the most common use of the word was
to describe a UML diagram. I.e. a Use Case diagram or Class
diagram. Whereas a diagram is not IMO a model, but simply
a view into a model.
That would seem to imply that if you ever have a UML diagram, it
must be a view onto some model. So if I have a UML diagram
of a pattern, then there must be some model of that pattern.

I'm just splitting hairs here, I know, but it's a quiet weekend...


Paul Oldfield

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
www.aptprocess.com

any opinions expressed herein are not necessarily those of
Mentors of Cally or the Appropriate Process Movement
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

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Jim Standley
2003-09-28 19:40:29 UTC
Permalink
I like the notion of diagrams as views into a model. But this doesn't say
one diagram can't contain 100% of the model at some point. If the first
thing I draw on a white board is two boxes and a line between them, that
might be 100% of my understanding of the system so far. Not likely, at
least not for long, but possible.

I don't have a problem thinking any diagram implies some sort of model. If
you show me a static class diagram and I am able to infer a dynamic object
diagram, I think I went diagram->model->diagram at least in my head.

I like it that Rose helps me maintain consistency between diagrams. Doesn't
guarantee it, is not the exclusive path to consistency. I had the same hope
for case tools and DFDs a couple decades ago, when on paper it was easy to
draw an input to a process that came from nowhere and hard to catch it.
Rose sucks a lot less than those did!
Post by Paul Oldfield
(responding to Les)
Post by l***@ureach.com
Post by Paul Oldfield
Hmm, so you don't permit the modelling of abstract concepts
such as patterns? Or would you permit it but just disallow
calling the result a 'model'? Can I call it a UML diagram?
I'd be happy enough to do that, and you can rap my knuckles
if on occasion I slip into my bad old habits ;-)
On the subject of 'UML diagrams', when I first joined my present
company, I found that people were using the term 'model' inconsistently.
This was particularly bad, because I work for the process group.
After investigation I found the most common use of the word was
to describe a UML diagram. I.e. a Use Case diagram or Class
diagram. Whereas a diagram is not IMO a model, but simply
a view into a model.
That would seem to imply that if you ever have a UML diagram, it
must be a view onto some model. So if I have a UML diagram
of a pattern, then there must be some model of that pattern.
I'm just splitting hairs here, I know, but it's a quiet weekend...
Paul Oldfield
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
www.aptprocess.com
any opinions expressed herein are not necessarily those of
Mentors of Cally or the Appropriate Process Movement
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
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p***@aol.com
2003-09-28 21:36:22 UTC
Permalink
In a message dated 09/28/2003 12:38:32 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
Post by Jason Gorman
I see iterative development as a series of "theories" put forward which are
then tested against "reality" (such that it is) to see if they fit the
facts.
This is a pretty good description of how I get the users to describe their
requirements. By providing almost immediate feedback to their descriptions of
what they need by providing working software as early as possible, it minimizes
many of the "glitches' that other forms of communication sometimes cause.

Regards,

Pete

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Paul Oldfield
2003-09-29 08:50:47 UTC
Permalink
(responding to Pete)
Post by p***@aol.com
This is a pretty good description of how I get the users to
describe their requirements. By providing almost immediate
feedback to their descriptions of what they need by providing
working software as early as possible, it minimizes many of
the "glitches' that other forms of communication sometimes cause.
While we're on the topic, and at the risk of preaching to the
converted, I find a great way to get almost immediate feedback
is to paraphrase the requirement and repeat it back to the user.
A lot of the misunderstandings are caught straight away, before
even writing any software.

(I suppose it's possible I misunderstand more often than others?)


Paul Oldfield

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
www.aptprocess.com

any opinions expressed herein are not necessarily those of
Mentors of Cally or the Appropriate Process Movement
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

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p***@aol.com
2003-09-29 17:13:56 UTC
Permalink
In a message dated 09/29/2003 1:51:33 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
Post by Paul Oldfield
While we're on the topic, and at the risk of preaching to the
converted, I find a great way to get almost immediate feedback
is to paraphrase the requirement and repeat it back to the user.
A lot of the misunderstandings are caught straight away, before
even writing any software.
Bingo! That's such a natural (and important) part of our process that I
didn't think to mention it. Thanks for the KITA.

Regards,

Pete

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l***@ureach.com
2003-09-29 23:18:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Scott Ambler
Post by l***@ureach.com
Here's an attempt at an example of what I mean. I draw two classes and
connect
Post by Scott Ambler
Post by l***@ureach.com
them with an association. This could be a model in Rose, but not on a
whiteboard. The difference - in Rose there is an implied cardinality at
each end
of the association, but I chose not to show it on the class diagram, but it
is
Post by Scott Ambler
Post by l***@ureach.com
there. On the whiteboard diagram there is not. (I'll be happy to respond to
arguments that say that it is there in the whiteboard picture too.)
At www.modelingstyle.info/classDiagram.html I discuss the concept of
implied multiplicity when it comes to aggregation/composition. I wasn't
using Rose and I could easily have drawn those diagrams on a
whiteboard. It's not a tool issue per se, it's a cultural issue on your
team. If someone draws two classes connected by an association but doesn't
indicate multiplicity if it's the common practice of the team to assume a
multiplicity of 1 then that's fine. Whether or not the tool works that
way, or if you've captured this as a guideline, is an orthogonal issue.
Sorry, not convinced:

1) You can only assume a multiplicity of one if it is documented that within
this 'group' no cardinality implies '1'.
2) I would consider this a dangerous rule to document, because the cardinality
will always be 1 by default, so how do I state that I have not thought about
putting cardinality on my class diagram yet?

Rose does something similar. When drawing an association between two things, a
bidirectional relationship and relationship with no direction are shown
identically, i.e. with no arrowheads. So I cannot indicate on my diagrams that I
have not yet considered the direction of the relationship.

Les.

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l***@ureach.com
2003-09-29 23:24:25 UTC
Permalink
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Post by Jim Standley
I like the notion of diagrams as views into a model. But this doesn't say
one diagram can't contain 100% of the model at some point. If the first
thing I draw on a white board is two boxes and a line between them, that
might be 100% of my understanding of the system so far. Not likely, at
least not for long, but possible.
Yes the diagram could contain 100% of the model, but it is still just a view
into the model.
Post by Jim Standley
I like it that Rose helps me maintain consistency between diagrams. Doesn't
guarantee it, is not the exclusive path to consistency. I had the same hope
for case tools and DFDs a couple decades ago, when on paper it was easy to
draw an input to a process that came from nowhere and hard to catch it.
Rose sucks a lot less than those did!
Actually, when CASE tools went OO from SA/SD they took a major step backwards.
In the mid-90's I could link my Teamwork model to an Interleaf document and have
the document updated in real-time, as I changed the model.

The closest I get to that capability now is SoDA :-(

Les.

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Jim Standley
2003-09-30 03:17:12 UTC
Permalink
I think we're agreeing. But if there is a moment when the model and the
diagram contain exactly the same information, why distinguish between them?
A view of a whole thing is ~ pretty much ~ like being there.

Case tools have taken us down a long heartbreaking trail, haven't they? I
remember Ed Yourdon predicted that there would be a great market in DFDs
that described common business processes, sold in electronic form for the
major CASE tools. Buy a Banking DFD, fill in your own implementation
details. Do you think MDA's implementation independent models will have as
much success?
Post by l***@ureach.com
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Post by Jim Standley
I like the notion of diagrams as views into a model. But this doesn't say
one diagram can't contain 100% of the model at some point. If the first
thing I draw on a white board is two boxes and a line between them, that
might be 100% of my understanding of the system so far. Not likely, at
least not for long, but possible.
Yes the diagram could contain 100% of the model, but it is still just a view
into the model.
Post by Jim Standley
I like it that Rose helps me maintain consistency between diagrams.
Doesn't
Post by Jim Standley
guarantee it, is not the exclusive path to consistency. I had the same
hope
Post by Jim Standley
for case tools and DFDs a couple decades ago, when on paper it was easy to
draw an input to a process that came from nowhere and hard to catch it.
Rose sucks a lot less than those did!
Actually, when CASE tools went OO from SA/SD they took a major step backwards.
In the mid-90's I could link my Teamwork model to an Interleaf document and have
the document updated in real-time, as I changed the model.
The closest I get to that capability now is SoDA :-(
Les.
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l***@ureach.com
2003-09-30 20:47:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim Standley
I think we're agreeing. But if there is a moment when the model and the
diagram contain exactly the same information, why distinguish between them?
A view of a whole thing is ~ pretty much ~ like being there.
Because, if I add to my model, but do not reflect this in my diagram, the
diagram no longer completely represents the model. So yesterday it was a model
.. today it is not.

Too complicated for management to grasp.

;-)
Post by Jim Standley
Case tools have taken us down a long heartbreaking trail, haven't they? I
remember Ed Yourdon predicted that there would be a great market in DFDs
that described common business processes, sold in electronic form for the
major CASE tools. Buy a Banking DFD, fill in your own implementation
details. Do you think MDA's implementation independent models will have as
much success?
Eventually yes, in fact much more so! It's just a case of when (and whether it
is still called MDA).

Les.

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Yazid Arezki
2003-10-01 14:33:41 UTC
Permalink
Bruce

Sorry to bother you, how promptly did you get paid. I have not been payed
yet, have you?

Thanks

Yazid

----- Original Message -----
From: <***@ureach.com>
To: "Jim Standley" <***@topica.com>
Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2003 9:47 PM
Subject: Re: Not connected to reality; was Relational Model was RE: [AM]
Post by l***@ureach.com
Post by Jim Standley
I think we're agreeing. But if there is a moment when the model and the
diagram contain exactly the same information, why distinguish between them?
A view of a whole thing is ~ pretty much ~ like being there.
Because, if I add to my model, but do not reflect this in my diagram, the
diagram no longer completely represents the model. So yesterday it was a model
.. today it is not.
Too complicated for management to grasp.
;-)
Post by Jim Standley
Case tools have taken us down a long heartbreaking trail, haven't they? I
remember Ed Yourdon predicted that there would be a great market in DFDs
that described common business processes, sold in electronic form for the
major CASE tools. Buy a Banking DFD, fill in your own implementation
details. Do you think MDA's implementation independent models will have as
much success?
Eventually yes, in fact much more so! It's just a case of when (and whether it
is still called MDA).
Les.
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l***@ureach.com
2003-09-30 20:44:48 UTC
Permalink
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Post by Jim Standley
Yup. There are some maps in LOTR books. Models of something not real. Ok,
it's real to some of you. Flame me in Elvish.
But the maps in LOTR are not models, because they do not model REAL things. They
are just pretty pictures.

That's my definition and I'm sticking to it .. and you asked for it so here it
is .. *Lacho calad! Drego morn!

That's me flaming you in Elvish,

:-)

Les.

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Jim Standley
2003-10-01 01:23:55 UTC
Permalink
I knew I could count on this group!

Leaving model vs diagram and joining model vs reality ... I'm with the
reality not required crowd. Just because that's how I live my life.
Post by l***@ureach.com
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Post by Jim Standley
Yup. There are some maps in LOTR books. Models of something not real. Ok,
it's real to some of you. Flame me in Elvish.
But the maps in LOTR are not models, because they do not model REAL things. They
are just pretty pictures.
That's my definition and I'm sticking to it .. and you asked for it so here it
is .. *Lacho calad! Drego morn!
That's me flaming you in Elvish,
:-)
Les.
For more information about AM, visit the Agile Modeling Home Page at www.agilemodeling.com
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p***@aol.com
2003-09-30 21:53:18 UTC
Permalink
In a message dated 09/30/2003 1:49:04 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
Post by l***@ureach.com
Eventually yes, in fact much more so! It's just a case of when (and whether
it
is still called MDA).
And I suspect it will not be the only way software is developed using models.
I'm working on this approach myself, and have been for some time, with some
success.

Regards,

Pete

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p***@aol.com
2003-09-30 21:48:37 UTC
Permalink
In a message dated 09/30/2003 1:46:28 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
Post by l***@ureach.com
But the maps in LOTR are not models, because they do not model REAL things.
They
are just pretty pictures.
Just wanted to "split some hairs" here, to be sure that I understand your
perspective:

If I'm developing a system that never before existed, and information flows
through this system in a manner unlike any other system, that system is not
based in reality, and therefore can't be modelled? Are the flow diagrams and
other artifacts just pretty pictures. Were the Wright brothers plans for their
flyer just pretty pictures, since it hadn't been built yet?. If so, did the
building of the Wright Flyer legitimize the plans?

A lot of what I do in software development is related to systems that don't
yet exist. If I'm not modelling before coding, what am I doing? (All kidding
aside, I mean this as a legitimate question).

Just a thought....

Regards,

Pete

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t***@bdk.rug.nl
2003-10-01 06:46:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by p***@aol.com
A lot of what I do in software development is related to systems that
don't yet exist. If I'm not modelling before coding, what am I doing?
(All kidding aside, I mean this as a legitimate question).
You are describing something that will be there in reality one day (or
should be or you just want it to be or.......)

This still fits into Ronald's definition:

"A selectively incomplete representation of something important in the
real world that provides the ability to study a certain aspect of the real
world object."

Thomas de Boer

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Steven Gordon
2003-09-30 21:57:55 UTC
Permalink
Is Elvish real, or just a model of language?

One of the major uses of a model is to help answer what if questions. Consider the models for the candidate complexes to be built on the WTC site. None of them are real, yet. Most of them will never be real, but aren't they all models.


-----Original Message-----
From: ***@ureach.com [mailto:***@ureach.com]
Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2003 1:45 PM
To: Jim Standley
Subject: Re: Definition of Model : [AM]



________________________________________________
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Post by Jim Standley
Yup. There are some maps in LOTR books. Models of something not real. Ok,
it's real to some of you. Flame me in Elvish.
But the maps in LOTR are not models, because they do not model REAL things. They
are just pretty pictures.

That's my definition and I'm sticking to it .. and you asked for it so here it
is .. *Lacho calad! Drego morn!

That's me flaming you in Elvish,

:-)

Les.

For more information about AM, visit the Agile Modeling Home Page at www.agilemodeling.com

For more information about AM, visit the Agile Modeling Home Page at www.agilemodeling.com
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l***@ureach.com
2003-10-01 01:19:01 UTC
Permalink
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Post by p***@aol.com
In a message dated 09/30/2003 1:46:28 PM Pacific Daylight Time,
Just wanted to "split some hairs" here, to be sure that I understand your
If I'm developing a system that never before existed, and information flows
through this system in a manner unlike any other system, that system is not
based in reality, and therefore can't be modelled? Are the flow diagrams and
other artifacts just pretty pictures. Were the Wright brothers plans for their
flyer just pretty pictures, since it hadn't been built yet?. If so, did the
building of the Wright Flyer legitimize the plans?
A lot of what I do in software development is related to systems that don't
yet exist. If I'm not modelling before coding, what am I doing? (All kidding
aside, I mean this as a legitimate question).
Excellent question .. to which I have yet to make up an answer. I will sleep on
it.

Les.

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Stephen Cohen
2003-10-01 01:47:32 UTC
Permalink
I would propose that one models (outside of ones head) to manage
complexity. If you have a new abstract thought, with no real world
manifestation, you might model it to capture the parts, determine
activities, relationships, or decompose in to ever greater detail to
better understand, or dare I say ... communicate ... the idea.

--Stephen

-----Original Message-----
From: Steven Gordon [mailto:***@asu.edu]
Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2003 5:58 PM
To: ***@topica.com
Subject: RE: Definition of Model : [AM]

Is Elvish real, or just a model of language?

One of the major uses of a model is to help answer what if questions.
Consider the models for the candidate complexes to be built on the WTC
site. None of them are real, yet. Most of them will never be real, but
aren't they all models.


-----Original Message-----
From: ***@ureach.com [mailto:***@ureach.com]
Sent: Tuesday, September 30, 2003 1:45 PM
To: Jim Standley
Subject: Re: Definition of Model : [AM]



________________________________________________
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Post by Jim Standley
Yup. There are some maps in LOTR books. Models of something not real.
Ok, it's real to some of you. Flame me in Elvish.
But the maps in LOTR are not models, because they do not model REAL
things. They are just pretty pictures.

That's my definition and I'm sticking to it .. and you asked for it so
here it is .. *Lacho calad! Drego morn!

That's me flaming you in Elvish,

:-)

Les.

For more information about AM, visit the Agile Modeling Home Page at
www.agilemodeling.com

For more information about AM, visit the Agile Modeling Home Page at
www.agilemodeling.com

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l***@ureach.com
2003-10-01 18:11:28 UTC
Permalink
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Post by t***@bdk.rug.nl
Post by p***@aol.com
A lot of what I do in software development is related to systems that
don't yet exist. If I'm not modelling before coding, what am I doing?
(All kidding aside, I mean this as a legitimate question).
You are describing something that will be there in reality one day (or
should be or you just want it to be or.......)
"A selectively incomplete representation of something important in the
real world that provides the ability to study a certain aspect of the real
world object."
Thankyou .. I'll go with this answer too.

Les.

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Richard Fisher
2003-10-08 12:37:00 UTC
Permalink
`I don't know what you mean by "glory,"' Alice said.

Humpty Dumpty smiled contemptuously. `Of course you don't -- till I tell
you. I meant "there's a nice knock-down argument for you!"'

`But "glory" doesn't mean "a nice knock-down argument,"' Alice objected.

'When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone, 'it
means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less.'

- Lewis Carroll

This list sometimes seems to turn to discussions between "Alices" and
"Humpteys". "Alices" feeling that words must abide by a standard meaning.
"Humpteys" feeling that words express their choice of meaning.

My observation, for what it's worth :-)

Rick Fisher

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t***@bdk.rug.nl
2003-10-09 06:56:40 UTC
Permalink
This is an old discussion between the essentialistic view and the
nominalistic view (Apologies when the word aren't proper
English/American). The essentialistic view states that a definition
should describe the "essential" properties, say the soul of a concept.
The nominalistic view simply states that a definition should give
enough properties of a concept to distinguish it from other concepts.

The essentialistic Alice versus the nominalistic Humphrey?

Thomas de Boer
Post by Richard Fisher
`I don't know what you mean by "glory,"' Alice said.
Humpty Dumpty smiled contemptuously. `Of course you don't -- till I
tell you. I meant "there's a nice knock-down argument for you!"'
`But "glory" doesn't mean "a nice knock-down argument,"' Alice
objected.
'When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone,
'it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less.'
- Lewis Carroll
This list sometimes seems to turn to discussions between "Alices" and
"Humpteys". "Alices" feeling that words must abide by a standard
meaning. "Humpteys" feeling that words express their choice of
meaning.
My observation, for what it's worth :-)
Rick Fisher
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Paul Oldfield
2003-10-02 07:53:09 UTC
Permalink
(responding to Jim, Les)
Post by l***@ureach.com
Post by Jim Standley
(Jim)
Case tools have taken us down a long heartbreaking trail, haven't they?
I
Post by l***@ureach.com
Post by Jim Standley
remember Ed Yourdon predicted that there would be a great market in DFDs
that described common business processes, sold in electronic form for
the
Post by l***@ureach.com
Post by Jim Standley
major CASE tools. Buy a Banking DFD, fill in your own implementation
details. Do you think MDA's implementation independent models will have
as
Post by l***@ureach.com
Post by Jim Standley
much success?
(Les)
Eventually yes, in fact much more so! It's just a case of when (and
whether it
Post by l***@ureach.com
is still called MDA).
I think the main problem with this approach is that though the domain
model may be the same, different people want to use the systems in
different ways. If we all had the same Use Cases, then yes, an off
the peg Platform Independent Model, and a set of translation rules
to build it for our platform, would be just the ticket.

However, if this were the case, then somebody could write the application,
and sell it to many customers (as many as would want the PIM, I would
think). They may need to port the App to several platforms, but why
not? Of course, in many cases this has already been done. The
opportunities for this sort of approach have already been cherry-picked.


Paul Oldfield

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
www.aptprocess.com

any opinions expressed herein are not necessarily those of
Mentors of Cally or the Appropriate Process Movement
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

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p***@aol.com
2003-10-02 15:21:19 UTC
Permalink
In a message dated 10/02/2003 12:56:54 AM Pacific Daylight Time,
Post by Paul Oldfield
The
opportunities for this sort of approach have already been cherry-picked.
Paul:

This certainly seems to be the case. The "low-hanging fruit" was a powerful
incentive to create what in retrospect seemed like pretty good "one size fits
all" development tools. Unfortunately, as applications and expectations became
more complex, the "all" became a smaller and smaller "some". I'm not
convinced, however, that there isn't an approach that might achieve the early promise
of these tools to a reasonable and cost-effective degree. While the statement
"One of x sizes might fit 85% of y requirements in z application types" sure
doesn't roll off the tongue like the previous statement, it might be an apt
description of what might evolve from those tools. As you may have deduced from
my previous posts, I'm convinced that it's not "Necessity" that is the Mother
of Invention, it's "Laziness".

Regards,

Pete

For more information about AM, visit the Agile Modeling Home Page at www.agilemodeling.com
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